The road toZack Snyder’s Justice Leaguehas been fraught for many. FilmmakerZack Snyderwas in production onJustice Leaguewhen Warner Bros. suddenly decided they wanted to lighten the tone, and the studio began taking a heavier hand in the shaping of the superhero team-up film vs. their more hands-off approach to Snyder’sBatman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. As we now know, that came to a head in post-production, where the butting of heads just did not seem worth it in the wake of Snyder’s own personal family tragedy, and Snyder left the film. The project was reshaped byJoss Whedon, and the theatrical cut that was released is a shell of what was originally planned.
But fan demand for The Snyder Cut didn’t extend only to Snyder’s version of the film, it also extended toTom Holkenborg’s original score. After Snyder leftJustice League, Holkenborg (akaJunkie XL) was also replaced as the composer, and his music for the superhero blockbuster didn’t see the light of day. Until now.
When Holkenborg got the call from Snyder that he was going to be able to finish his version ofJustice Leaguefor HBO Max, the composer immediately dug out the music he originally composed for the film back in 2016 – and proceeded to throw it in the trash. As Holkenborg explained to me in a recent exclusive interview, he had some negative emotions tied to the music he originally created for the film (he finished roughly 50% before leaving the project), but he also saw an opportunity inZack Snyder’s Justice Leagueto apply everything he had learned over the past four years to a brand new score. So he started from scratch.
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The result is four hours and 20 minutes of all-new music, which served as a herculean challenge for the composer who says, after crafting a four-hour film score, he can now state with confidence that he can take on any movie. In the below interview, he talked about his initial experience onJustice Leagueand why he trashed his original score, how he went about writing and recording this new score during the pandemic, why writing a four-hour film score is completely different from writing for a TV series, and the creative freedom he enjoyed on this particular project.
We also discussed Holkenborg’s work on the upcoming blockbusterGodzilla vs. Kong, for which he had a massive drum made, and he teased his all-electronic score for Snyder’s upcoming zombie movieArmy of the Dead. He also talked briefly about working withMad Max: Fury RoaddirectorGeorge Milleragain on3,000 Years of Longing, and a particular IMDb credit for an upcoming Pixar movie that is incorrect despite the fact that the composer would love to work with the acclaimed animation studio.
It’s a wide-ranging and insightful interview about a truly unique film project and much more. Check it out in full below.
What was your initial experience onJustice Leagueback in 2016?
TOM HOLKENBORG: Well obviously, it all started off really great. At that point, it was movie number four that I was doing with Zack. It was the first time that I would take such a big franchise on on my own. Because withBatman v Supermanit was double billing with Hans Zimmer, and onMan of SteelI was working for Hans. So it was quite a thing to be able to do this on my own. I started and we were on a great trip together, and then everything hit a snag around May [of 2017]. And he had to stop working on it, which means I had to stop working on it. So obviously, that didn’t feel good. And thanks to the tenacity and the power of the fans that kept harassing Warner Brothers, not only to release the film, but to release the score, eventually that lead to, “Well, why don’t you guys finish it?”
And that was a great moment. Keep in mind though, that the movie that I was working on in 2016 was a two-hour movie. And when this whole project got greenlit last year in May, even though I knew it was coming quite a bit earlier than that, I looked at what I had done. I have some negative emotional feelings with that older music to begin with, because it reminded me of that whole time period that we had to stop working on it, and also what happened in Zack’s personal life. That was already a motivator to start from scratch. But then, when I listened to the music again, I fought, but with myself. I’ve been learning so much with some of these really great directors that I’ve worked with over the last four years that I felt the need to start all over. And that’s exactly what I did.
And then, my Mount Everest climb began, because it’s a four hour and 20 minute movie that is almost completely packed with music. I’d never done anything like that before. In history, it’s quite unique to have so much film score in a movie. It really was a Mount Everest, because I started full in isolation because of COVID. It was just me and my spare bedroom at my house, eight by eight feet, and a small computer setup in there, and one guitar, one bass, a few percussion instruments, one or two favorite pieces of gear that I wanted to have there, and completely on my own. I was there for like eight months hammering this thing out. It made it very intense because of it, not only to work like that, but also how the music turned out from that point.
You said you set aside that original score that you had put together. But how close were you to completion on that original version back in 2016?
HOLKENBORG: I was roughly halfway through. I started, I think, like September 2016. The movie came out in ‘17, right? And then we stopped working on it somewhere in late April, early May. I forgot exactly what it was. But the movie was not supposed to come out until November, so I had so much time on my hands to finish the remaining hour and 20 minutes or so. But yeah. I only did 50 minutes, 55 minutes of score, out of the two hours that was required, so I was halfway.
So when Zack first called you and told you that his version of the film was now going to be finished for HBO Max, what was your initial reaction there? Was it excitement at getting to go back? Did you already kind of think like, “Oh, I’m not sure I like that original score. I might need to start over”?
HOLKENBORG: I mean, I knew months and months before that this was potentially coming. So, of course, I started digging in my hard drives to see where I was with this whole thing. And actually, in my mind, I was way further in the process in 2016. But, as it turned out, I was not. So I was fooled by the fact that I did 50 to 55 minutes of original score, but then the rest of the movie was covered with music edits from that material and music edits of demos that I had done for the film. So I was under the perception that I was close. But as it turned out, I was not. So I listened to everything before we got greenlit to start on this thing. And I really felt the need to do it over, to do it again. I also felt so much more pressure right now than I felt back then, because back then it was the pressure of doing a big franchise like that on your own. But now, there’s the pressure that there’s millions of kids that have been screaming for four years on end to release [Zack’s cut.]
And on top of that, what also made it very unique is that when Zack called me and told me that this was going to happen, after examining what I had for the last couple of months, I said, “Would you mind if I start over?” And he said, “No, by all means.” And he said, “And the shackles are off. Do whatever you want.” So, for me, it was a great opportunity, also because so much music was needed, to really grapple with a lot of the things that I have learned over the last few years in film scoring, and study them more, and utilizing them more.
I was able to utilize my deep admiration for classical music around the turn of the 19th century into the 20th century, my deep admiration for the early Hollywood film scoring from 1930 to 1960, my deep admiration for everything that I’ve learned over the last 35 years from rock music, recording bands, to electronic music, cutting at sound design, modern music, mixing modern music with old music. So, for me, it was incredible to fill those four hours and 20 minutes with everything that I had learned up until this point in life, and then attempt to take it further. So it was incredible opportunity.
So, four hours and 20 minutes, that’s a lot of music. And I know you’ve worked in television before, but this is completely different because you’re not scoring single one-hour installments. You have to make it flow throughout. How soon did you know it was going to be that long? And were you daunted by that approach? Or was that kind of an exciting challenge for you to craft a four-and-a-half-hour film score?
HOLKENBORG: Yes on everything you just said. And to give you some background, there are two types of TV shows. There’s the [network] show. Let’s say a show like24, for instance, where there’s mini arcs of seven, eight minutes, or we go to commercial. And then, there’s a big arc towards the end of the episode, before the next episode starts. Right? And so, those type of shows are not as suitable for binge-watching, because it is really tiring, all these commercial breaks, even though the commercials are not there, but the way that the show is being shaped. And so the Netflix type streaming, yes, there are 10 episodes, but there are clearly cliffhangers at each episode. Then you can enjoy another episode five days later, or you can enjoy it right away. But there’s always a little bit of recap when the episode starts.
So, even though it’s a unique animal, it still reminds you a little bit of those solid chunks that need to be approached. When I found out that this was a four-hour and 20-minute movie, which I knew May of last year, and I had an understanding how much music was needed for it… You don’t really start making music for the opening scene and see what you’re going to do after. It’s like, if we were to meet up and we have Home Depot deliver a huge amount of building materials, we’re not just going to start building a bathroom right away. You’re going to do drawings. You’re going to talk to an architect. It’s like, “How is this thing going to shape?” There’s a lot of thinking that is involved. And it’s like, “How am I going to attack this? What is the overall arc of the four hours? Where do I want to end? What is an important hanger right here, like at hour number three? What is an important scene, 45 minutes in?” And you start to design those. And then, you work on the next level of scenes, and the next level of scenes. And at a certain point, a pattern starts to arise of everything that you’ve done. So it’s definitely an intense approach, but I really loved it. And I remember feeling, when this thing was done, it’s like, “Well, from now on, I can take on any movie.” Everything will feel like some sort of a relief. It’s definitely intense.
Well, not only that, I mean, you’ve mentioned the chains are off. You’ve worked on a lot of big franchise movies and as a composer, usually you’re serving the director’s vision, but also this executive has a vision, and that executive has a vision, and the studio is worried about how much money they’re going to make at the box office. This is Zack’s vision, unfiltered. Did you have just complete and total creative freedom? And then did that make this process different from other projects you’ve worked on?
HOLKENBORG: Well, keep in mind though, I come from an artist background where my vision was the only vision that counted. And the reason why I embraced film scoring is that I really fell in love with the team effort of creating the best possible projects. And I never considered that criticism, or tips, or feedback from studio or producers, was necessarily a bad thing. Actually, I would say it turned me into a better composer. It’s like, “Well, why don’t you look at that scene again and see if there’s more to be had like this or like that.” And I was like, “Man, I would never think of that.” And so, that’s why I love the teamwork aspect in filmmaking. Every now and then, it’s great, for instance, with this movie, to go back a little bit where I came from, where it’s your artistic vision is the only one that counts with what the director thinks that needs to be done, which is so simple in way of working.
But I’ve had this before a few times, because there are a few directors on this planet — not so many anymore — that have what they call final cut, which means they are the only one that will make creative decisions. George Miller was one onFury Road. Peter Jackson, for instance, is one.Alita, Robert Rodriguez or James Cameron was another of those movies. It’s like, when everything was done, it was pretty much delivered to the studio. Those are very unique scenarios obviously, but I loved it. I really loved the team playing on this. But in this case, it made it super special that it was just me and Zack.
You said this was just you because of the pandemic. I was wondering if you could walk me through exactly how the score was written and then performed. Was it you the entire time? Were you able to get some musicians together? Did you work remotely?
HOLKENBORG: So in this case, I want to bring in alsoGodzilla vs. Kong, which was done in the same year. Writing on my own, I really loved, just sitting in that room, that small room, being focused. Only my dog would bark every now and then, and it’s like, “Oh. You need some food.” But other than that, it was just that. And it was incredible, liberating, and almost threw me back to 30 years ago when I was 14, and I started making my first demos with a four-track recorder, one synthesizer, one drum computer, and a guitar with a shitty amp, you know? That effect of limitation was just incredible. And it made me rethink the way that I make music. Now, to the recording part, it’s interesting. Because a score likeJustice LeagueandGodzilla vs. Kong, where normally a massive orchestra would spit all that music out in five, six days recording in a row. It’s like you can spit out a whole film score from beginning to end, when it comes to the recording part of it, sometimes in eight, nine days, because it’s such an oiled machine and people have been doing it for years.
But boy did that change when COVID hit. So, for these two movies, I’ve been all over the spectrum, like recording individual players at home, and one recording in a bathroom, and the other one in the living room, and the other one in a bedroom, with some barking in the background of neighbors’ dogs. I mean, you cannot imagine how intense that was. But everything took so long. Both the movies were recorded, orchestrated, and mixed by me, and then delivered to the stage, over a time span of like 14 weeks instead of nine days. It was a very meticulous planning process. I started in May. “If I want to make the deadline of January 2021, we should have our first recording session forJustice Leaguesomewhere to the second or third week of August.” And people are like, “Are you nuts?” So, it was a whole different level of getting feedback on both the movies, because I needed so much time to verify that I was able to deliver a proper product.
You mentionedGodzilla vs. Kong, which I can’t wait to see. But I’m very curious about this giant drum that you had made for that score.
HOLKENBORG: In April 2018, I got hired go doGodzilla vs. Kong. So I was completely done with the music around April last year, so a good month before I started onJustice League. And because of COVID, we had to wait with the release, and now it’s coming out the way that it is. And so, in 2018, I thought, “Okay, we got two monsters that weigh like God knows how many tons.” So, I looked at the sounds that I had to do that. And I simply thought, “I don’t have a drum big enough.” So I work with this incredible instrument maker from San Diego. He made some drums for me forTomb Raider. He comes from a Dutch family, but he grew up in America and they have Indonesian descent — that’s why they’re drawn to instruments from Indonesia and the Pacific islands out there. So I needed that forTomb Raider. And he built proper instruments that are really the character of these Pacific Island drums. And for Kong, I thought, he’s taken from these Pacific Islands and basically shipped to America in the first couple of movies. I’m not going to tell you what’s going to happen in this one, but that’s the sound that he comes from.
So, to a certain extent, I was able to utilize the percussion I already had forTomb Raiderthat has that character. But I was like, “Now, I need a bass drum. How big can you make it?” And I said, “Seven foot? Eight foot?” And he said, “Well, there are limits to a drum.” And I said, “Well, why is that?” He’s like, “Well, it depends on the biggest cowskin we can find.” I didn’t even think about that. So, he found a big skin and it turned out to be five feet in diameter. But boy, that thing was big. I didn’t know how big that was. I mean, it’s five feet in diameter, and then it’s like six and a half feet long. And it got delivered here on a massive truck. And it’s like, “How do we get this thing inside?” We couldn’t. So I was able to roll it with six people in the garage. It barely fit under the garage door. And that’s how we got it inside. And so, I sampled that thing extensively, and it sounds wonderful in that score. Incredible.
I also wanted to ask you aboutArmy of the Dead. You’re working with Zack again on a completely different movie. I was wondering if you could kind of talk about what we can expect from that. I know Zack’s made a zombie film before, but this feels like a very different kind of zombie film.
HOLKENBORG: Oh it is. It’s incredible. I mean, he definitely defines the genre in quite a different way than what we would expect. And I’m not going to say more about it because it’s going to give stuff away. I was people to have the same surprise that I had when I watched it for the first time. Especially how it’s filmed and the way that the story develops, it’s very unique. What I wanted to do for this particular movie is, A, I came off a couple of movies in a row that were very heavy on the orchestra. And I said to Zack, “What do you think about a total electronic score?” And he’s like, “Yeah, let’s go.” So it has a few orchestral sounds here and there, but we didn’t record anything. There’s a lot of sound design aspects that are very important in there. Because it’s a zombie film, there’s definitely some bread and butter scare tactics that we might expect from a zombie movie. But there’s a lot of music that is actually juxtaposed against something that we see. But it takes a very emotional route to underscore it. And that worked, to our surprise, really well. So a lot of the music for the movie has a very strong emotional quality to it, which normally you would not expect to be in a movie like that.
That sounds really cool. I know you probably can’t say anything about it, but I cannot wait for George Miller’s next film. Have you started on3,000 Years of Longingyet?
HOLKENBORG: I’m right in the middle of it with him. And yeah, I can’t say anything about the story. He should be the one to bring that up. What I can say is that it’s really great to work with him again. What’s interesting is that the year and a half, two years, that we worked together onFury Roadresulted in a few things. And one of them is that we became really good friends. And so, we actually had a lot of contact the last five years, on a regular basis, long phone calls, very interesting nights when he would be in LA, just going out to dinner and just talking about all kinds of different things. And we really stimulate each other for various different ways of thinking, not only in film, but also for many social issues, or political issues, economic issues. It’s always great to talk to him and time just flies by. It’s like, “Have we been talking on the phone for three hours? Oh man, I should really get to work.” It’s really interesting. What is interesting about this particular movie is that we have been almost on the phone for 90 hours, before he started shooting, to direct me in a certain musical way. And I came up with two pieces of music that he’s actually shooting the film to. But I can be more specific when the movie actually comes out.
Yeah, I can’t wait. And he’s also working onFuriosa. Has he formally asked you to come back to do the music for that yet?
HOLKENBORG: We haven’t discussedFuriosaat all, actually. And I know he’s in full development with that, but because he’s so busy right now, the moments that we talk together re really focused on3000 Years of Longing, and just to make sure that all that information is exchanged.
One thing coming up that I’m super excited for isTurning Red, which is, I believe, your first time working at Pixar. I was just kind of curious what that experience has been like.
HOLKENBORG: That is news to me.
Oh are you not doing that? It’s on your IMDb page.
HOLKENBORG: Yeah, but IMDB is not always correct. I’ll tell you one funny story, because technically people can fill in stuff on IMDd and it’s going to get checked later on. I remember seeing on there that, for two years, I was doingSonic the Hedgehog. And I was never officially approached. And then, I was talking to Tim Miller regardingTerminator. And I said, “I don’t know what to make of it. It’s like, for instance, some idiot put on there that I’m doingSonic the Hedgehog.” And then, Tim Miller said, “Well, you are.” I said, “What are talking about?” He’s like, “Well, I’m the producer on that movie. And I said, you should do it. So I filled it out two years ago.” Little did I know. Officially, I don’t know anything. And that happens sometimes. Sometimes I see something on there. It’s like, “Whoa, how is that possible?” But then, on the other end, I sometimes have been hired to officially do a movie. And then I see on IMDB supposedly a different composer is doing is. How is that possible? You know? So, I have no idea how that works.
That sounds about right. Well, I apologize for not looking into that further, but I would be very excited to hear you work on a Pixar film.
HOLKENBORG: I would love to work on a Pixar film. Let’s make that thing clear.
Zack Snyder’s Justice Leaguewill be released exclusively on HBO Max on March 18th.
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